Curse

ultimatenewb · Jan 09, 2010, 05:13 AM // 05:13

I completely agree with Kaleban. Players don't complain as much about farming because it was their choice to do it and complaining about your own decisions is pretty pointless.

Of course that brings in the fact that grinding is technically one's decision from deciding to play the game, but that's pretty much all RPGs anyway so I just defeated my own point.

Jugalo Dano · Jan 09, 2010, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

As to the OP, Grind is not the same as Farming. Farming is an "alternative gamestyle" if you prefer, whereas in lieu of pursuing content, a player repeats areas by choice for coveted items or other drops and such.

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline. It could also be argued that once content has been completed once (i.e. completing the EoTN campaign), anything afterwards is grind, if it requires the player to re-play a given area just to be able to play further areas, famously the r10 Norn title for Ursan runs.

This.

The only real reason why ANY of us farm is for financial reasons one way or another. Wether it be farming for making gold via the merchant; farming a rare item to try and hit the lottery, or even farming a single green item just so you do not have to buy it from another player. The only exclusion to this would be traveller gifts or holiday items, but there are still many players who farm these items to make money as well.

But If you think about it, we are all doing it to ourselves. The reason you need to farm for financial reasons is because we all charge each other so darn much for everything. There are no laws that say what prices are for items, the player base creates these numbers, thus creating money shortfalls that we have to go out of our way to compensate for. Some people will surely try and cite supply & demand as a reason for high prices, but there's nothing that says the supplier has to DEMAND such outrageous prices that no player can aquire said item through normal means.
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Personally I am a fan of the npc dispensing item's based on achievement's such as the end game greens and the BMP; but I understand the need for an economy in games like these as it allows players to interact and having an active market gives the game a much more worldly feel. I just think that it would be a good thing to see the open player market limited more to things that every player needs and exclude as much vanity as possible. Items such as runes, tomes, weapon mods; etc. would all endorse healthy trading so long as none of these items were to become super rare.

shoyon456 · Jan 09, 2010, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Simply put,
Grind is repetitive action required to progress or be on equal standing with another player in the game.

Example: Having to progress a title so PvE-only skills have higher benefits (which is often a group req as well), high level caps depending on progression rate, etc...

Farming is working towards a personal goal or for a "prestige" item, and thus chosen. Farming IS OFTEN grind depending on if the player farms the same area/method. The distinction is that farming can be chosen whereas grind within the game is faced by all players who simply play through the game. And thankfully in the GW universe (which is my standard), those that farm for and obtain a prestige item are at no statistic advantage from those who choose not to.

Example: FoW armor, tormented weps, etc...

EDIT:
Completely my opinion.

gremlin · Jan 09, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Its human nature to want the best you can get and that applies to gaming as much as the real world.
I try to avoid grind but accept it at times to get something I want.

I would like to get my Sunspear rank to max, I would also like to have achieved that before I finished the game.
To me it made sense to maximise my skills to beat the major threat before facing the threat.

Sadly GW doesn't work that way, you have to win then play the game again in hard mode to achieve the objective that you now no longer need.
I suspect the vast majority of grind is just to see what we will all gain when we get to play gw2, I also suspect that a lot of us will be disappointed.

We are all grinding our way through masses of weapons armour pets titles and skills just so we will have something extra in gw2 that someone new will not have.
Common sense says what we will gain will not be earth shattering but then common sense and endless grind are incompatable anyway.

Vazze · Jan 09, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13

I don't want to ruin your dreams but unless you work here:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7515432&page=1
making money is kind a grind. Guess what, even in gw.

AKB48 · Jan 09, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Grind you're just going for exp, which gets boring really really fast since it holds no immediate prestige(i.e. you go from lv 38 to 39, you don't feel much better). But with farming, you either trying to get cash fast or for a specific item, in both cases you got a stronger urge to do it(10k gold in 10 min, you would want to keep on doing that over and over), since in both cases, you can get the items that you want. And in the latter cases, it's common in mmo where the only way to get that specific item IS to grind some class of monster for it, so you're left with no choice but to do it.

Arduin · Jan 09, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

As to the OP, Grind is not the same as Farming. Farming is an "alternative gamestyle" if you prefer, whereas in lieu of pursuing content, a player repeats areas by choice for coveted items or other drops and such.

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline. It could also be argued that once content has been completed once (i.e. completing the EoTN campaign), anything afterwards is grind, if it requires the player to re-play a given area just to be able to play further areas, famously the r10 Norn title for Ursan runs.

Farming can be fun and enjoyable, seeing a rare drop gives many a sense of accomplishment. Grind on the other hand is repetition for its own sake, and is no substitute for randomized or new content. I would say that one of the reasons games like Diablo 2 can still be fun is because enemies and areas are randomized, such that a player never quite knows what he or she will face, hence these areas are quite replayable to a point.

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I'll just quote Kaleban one more time. I have to stress GW has little to no grind. The 10k Kurzick or Luxon and the SS points are the only two that come to mind, and those are easily collected doing some quests or killing with bounties.

Even getting the r10 Norn for Ursan runs isn't grind, because you are very well able to do a run with r4 Norn or even without Norn rank, or even without Norn skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Simply put,
Grind is repetitive action required to progress or be on equal standing with another player in the game.

Example: Having to progress a title so PvE-only skills have higher benefits (which is often a group req as well), high level caps depending on progression rate, etc...

I don't need a PvE title to be able to get in a group and clear Slaver's Exile. By my standards, that isn't grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

We are all grinding our way through masses of weapons armour pets titles and skills just so we will have something extra in gw2 that someone new will not have.
Common sense says what we will gain will not be earth shattering but then common sense and endless grind are incompatable anyway.

Those titles won't make you better in GW2. People without those titles are as capable as you in defeating Zhaitan. I'd say HoM =/= grind.

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All of this is my opinion of course. People beg to differ about the definition of grind. However, the word gets used a bit too much to complain about Anet nerfing farmbuilds and such, imho.

richdaddy · Jan 09, 2010, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Some Farm because they like to and want in-game wealth.

Some farm because they have to, its not their fault it's the flaw in the random drops and loot scaling. Data was collected a long time ago showing the flaws in HM in a all human party and H/H vs. solo. Even though people hate to grind farm it has its purpose you need gold to buy things.

Where grinding title have serve no purpose other then to stroke bad players ego in to thinking they are the best in the game.

I farm cause I like too, and the uw is easy to farm. It's going to get lonely in toa soon without all the sins and 600's lol.

I also grind titles because the game is boring to me, after 5 yrs titles give this old busted game a new purpose for me and others that started back in the day. Some do it for the potential unlocks in GW2. Some may do it for showing off but regardless ppl do titles for many reasons, so shuush you narrow minded pawn.

Abedeus · Jan 09, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I'll just quote Kaleban one more time. I have to stress GW has little to no grind. The 10k Kurzick or Luxon and the SS points are the only two that come to mind, and those are easily collected doing some quests or killing with bounties.

Even getting the r10 Norn for Ursan runs isn't grind, because you are very well able to do a run with r4 Norn or even without Norn rank, or even without Norn skills.
I don't need a PvE title to be able to get in a group and clear Slaver's Exile. By my standards, that isn't grind.

Just because grind is easy doesn't mean it's not grind. Aion, for instance, is extremely easy to level up... but it's a LONG, and BORING leveling up. Which is even more funny when people say that there are easier games. Aion is easy, GW in PvE is easy, grind can be easy, but it won't be better thanks to this.

Gun Pierson · Jan 09, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline. It could also be argued that once content has been completed once (i.e. completing the EoTN campaign), anything afterwards is grind, if it requires the player to re-play a given area just to be able to play further areas, famously the r10 Norn title for Ursan runs.

Farming can be fun and enjoyable, seeing a rare drop gives many a sense of accomplishment. Grind on the other hand is repetition for its own sake, and is no substitute for randomized or new content. I would say that one of the reasons games like Diablo 2 can still be fun is because enemies and areas are randomized, such that a player never quite knows what he or she will face, hence these areas are quite replayable to a point.

^This.

I'm currently solo farming for an armor in Titan Quest (Diablo clone) with my Pew Pew hunter. The armor is rare and has 4 pieces and I still need 2 of them. Farming the same 2 bosses for weeks now and when a piece drops it's a great feeling, a feeling I haven't had in GW for a long time. At the same time other special gear drops too, so it keeps things interesting till the parts I need drop. I can download some kind of vault which has all the items if I want, but if I would do that, it would take away the fun of the call of the hunt.

It's like opening boosters from Magic the Gathering in the old days, there's always a chance that rare card comes out of it.

Farming is like fishing, you get an adrenaline boost when there's something on the hook. Lots of fun for me and my gaming buddies.

The process of getting better, more effcient in the farm run is also fun.

To the OP: I don't need to accept farming, I need to accept an RPG game without farming, which usually ends on the shelf when I finished the story line. Versus when I play PvP games like Starcraft, Warcraft3 etc who have their endgame content in the form of PvP, ladder ranking etc and where the individual glory comes first, not like in GW's PvP where team glory comes first.

Yelling @ Cats · Jan 09, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I've always favored an unlock system where accomplishments unlock items, and you pay a nominal (gold) fee to spawn it on any character once you unlock the item on your account. Rare skins are given for completing content shorthanded, quickly, or what have you. Then make all of these items impossible to trade.

This does several nice things. If you make the tasks hard enough, you can eliminate running (even as a barter system of "I run X and you run Y") for rare skins. You eliminate gold selling entirely. You create a new secondary market for players to actually play the accounts of others for RL cash, but anyone should see that's a lot riskier than paying a gold seller.

It also disincentivizes power creep, because you have to make pay artists to make new rare skins if everything becomes common as a result of some new OP build.

It'll never happen, because the system eradicates the need for a virtual economy. ANet wants to sell games to power traders, too.

Great idea...have always supported it. As long as the achievements aren't retarded like titles (oh yay, spend 6 million gold on candy then sit and click for 8 hours, you're so skilled).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Here's an idea! make dungeons shorter so we don't have to resort to lame farming or running builds to do them! Keep it to a 30 min marker and we'll see a halfway decent economy! Since everything will then be on the same price point instead of one area being farmed for hours and dropping in value we'll see even prices!

A game shouldn't be based off of the lowest common denominator. If terrible players like yourself could finish dungeons in 30 minutes, skilled players could finish them in 10-15. Would just be a complete waste of programming time and seriously disappointing to anyone who can play a video game with more competency than a bowl of pudding.

Yelling @ Cats · Jan 09, 2010, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline. It could also be argued that once content has been completed once (i.e. completing the EoTN campaign), anything afterwards is grind, if it requires the player to re-play a given area just to be able to play further areas, famously the r10 Norn title for Ursan runs.

Farming can be fun and enjoyable, seeing a rare drop gives many a sense of accomplishment. Grind on the other hand is repetition for its own sake, and is no substitute for randomized or new content. I would say that one of the reasons games like Diablo 2 can still be fun is because enemies and areas are randomized, such that a player never quite knows what he or she will face, hence these areas are quite replayable to a point.

So basically...farming is grind...but with a reward that you, Kaleban, finds appropriate?

moriz · Jan 09, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

if some find farming enjoyable for the sake of farming, then let them go at it.

however, i find farming purely for monetary gains in this game to be utterly dumb. money buys absolute squat in this game. until money can buy me equipment/skills that's actually statistically better than the ones i have now, i see no reason why anyone would actively try to farm it. there's a case to be made if someone wants to buy something that they can't afford, then farming is appropriate. i see no reason why anyone would farm just to see their gold collection pile up. after all, it's entirely worthless.

Yelling @ Cats · Jan 09, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if some find farming enjoyable for the sake of farming, then let them go at it.

however, i find farming purely for monetary gains in this game to be utterly dumb. money buys absolute squat in this game. until money can buy me equipment/skills that's actually statistically better than the ones i have now, i see no reason why anyone would actively try to farm it. there's a case to be made if someone wants to buy something that they can't afford, then farming is appropriate. i see no reason why anyone would farm just to see their gold collection pile up. after all, it's entirely worthless.

I've known people who had never finished a campaign, but had farmed 2 million gold that they just stockpiled...

They claimed it was so that they would "be ready" when the decided to finish the game.

Axeman002 · Jan 09, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Nicholas items = Grind (if u think Anet dont want farmers...why implement this guy)

SoOSC/UWSC/FOWSC = farming enjoyment/accomplishment

Shriketalon · Jan 09, 2010, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Grind is that which is imposed on the player and gives him or her no choice, such as at one point having to grind Sunspear points to advance the storyline...
Farming can be fun and enjoyable, seeing a rare drop gives many a sense of accomplishment. Grind on the other hand is repetition for its own sake, and is no substitute for randomized or new content. I would say that one of the reasons games like Diablo 2 can still be fun is because enemies and areas are randomized, such that a player never quite knows what he or she will face, hence these areas are quite replayable to a point.

This, right here, is quite wise.

Would it be fair to say, then, that both sides, grind and farming, could be improved by the use of variation and impetus?

The former is simple, eliminating the requirement to grind, so that players can choose to do so rather than be forced.

Would the latter be improved if there were multiple means of acquiring any given bit of prestige? Faction titles can be improved by slaying, vanquishing, questing, or books, providing multiple means to a single end that prevent the player from having to endlessly repeat a single action. Getting Sweet Tooth has plenty of routes, from Nicholas to merchants to festivals.

What if many of the commodities people seek were available from multiple locations and through different means? If a rare weapon could be a drop, a crafted item with hefty requirements/scavenger hunt across the maps, or a challenge mission reward every month, etc. Or if the areas in which these rare things drop were randomized, facing different monsters with different skillbars? While people might go for the swiftest and simplest means to an end, it would still provide variety which, as they say, is the spice of life.

zwei2stein · Jan 09, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It'll never happen, because the system eradicates the need for a virtual economy.

Not necesarily. While you can lock up any meninagfull reward, you do not have to lockdown everything.

There is always potential in leaving "utility" ecomony in player hands. Consumable items will always be in demand and hence market will always exist. As long as they are not "use this 10000 and get title" or "use this and win", motivation to buy gold to get em is going to be minimal.

Reverend Dr · Jan 09, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

People really don't know what they want in a video game. They may think they know, but they don't. They will go as far as to tell and scream about what they think they want, when it isn't what they really want.

animal fighter · Jan 09, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

first off,
no grind is necessary in gw. at all. period.

you grind for flashy armor/expensive weapons to make your character look better
but they are by no means necessary

so all grind is by choice

Yawgmoth · Jan 09, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Farming in GW is entirely optional, you don't need to farm anything. It's not a grind unless you want to make it a grind.